Lost Overseas
Hallo Leute! I hope you didn’t think I’d up and abandoned you with my Lost posts. No, I’m just on a little vacation in Germany. Which means I’ve gotta take my Dharma pills like most of the world: a little later, and in a slightly more compressed dosage.
I’m gonna start this one out with a follow-up question to my last double post, okay?
So… Ben… or …Neb? After Wednesday’s episode where do you stand? If the posts’ comments are any indication, right now Ben… is winning handily here on my Blog. And my interpretation of this week’s ep is that the writers know it’s the more popular theory… the more obvious theory. We’ve seen lots of people come back to life on the Island… so why couldn’t Ben be saved too? Seems an almost predictable end to the episode, no?
And yet, I’m still a little more in the Neb… camp. Which looks similar to, but not exactly like, The Others’ 1954 camp. That’s to say, I still believe this is not the same universe as the one where they started. I think the Ajira 316 flight has crashed on an Island that’s been modified by the events of this alternate 1977. And I think the biggest hint came in the Miles/Hurley scene.
Hurley represents the non-obsessed viewer, right? Those who could care less about String Theory or Lemuria. You know, sane people who just want a good story that’s not too confusing. And that’s a large portion of the Lost audience. And a powerful influencing force to the show.
The cast is filled with smartasses like Miles, who think they have all the physics or meta-physics figured out. I’d say, those guys represent viewers like me. And usually those guys, try as they may (doing lots of research, writing double posts that let them straddle both sides, calling their Lost theories “hunches”, posing their hunches as questions or lists of observations)… those guys still usually have it wrong in the end… kinda like when The Swan starts to implode. It’s only then that Locke finally admits, “I was wrong!”
And with Hurley’s last line, the writers may be saying, “Don’t worry. The nerds don’t know everything.” Forget that his question could have been easily answered with, “Ben does remember Sayid. He was just really good at faking it,” or can now be answered with “Richard says he’s gonna forget everything that’s happened.” No, something tells me there’s more.
I still think Faraday’s disappearance means that even he’s let go of this rigid theory of time/space. Consider this: If Daniel does end up telling lil’ Charlotte not to return to the island, wouldn’t that mean he now believes events can be changed?… and if he doesn’t tell her… wouldn’t that also mean he thinks events can be changed? In fact, the latter would mean they can. I’m eager to see what happens there.
The irony, of course, is that Neb…‘s a dorkally complicated theory. Which would probably be a good reason to use Hurley and Back to the Future to help explain it.
Oh, and at the end there, Sawyer has an interesting line to The Others. He says Ben’s dying is now both their problem. What do you think he means? What has Sawyer learned about this Island in the past 3 years? I still think Smokey is somehow involved. Richard took Ben into The Temple… Smokey’s in The Temple, right?
Or maybe Smokey doesn’t exist yet. Maybe in Rousseau’s 1987, the Smoke Monster was a lil’ 10 year old Smokey; one who just wanted to play.
So anyway, back to my original question: Time… as it relates to time travel… rigid or fluid?

meredith on 03 Apr 2009 at 5:50 am #
Writing this on my BB in the cab on my way to work so please forgive any spelling errors, yadda yadda…
A friend made an interesting observation last night while watching the episode…the people in Dharmaville right now from the crash were the people on Ben’s list in what, season 3? And Juliet’s on the island and she was actively pursued by Alpert to come there…The list came from Jacob to Ben so that made us think that Ben’s past really is his past, and that he DOES remember. Although if the list really did come from Jacob who knows.
As to where the eff Daniel is…when Alpert takes young Ben someone says “Don’t we need to talk to Charles or Ellie” or something along those lines…Ellie…nickname for Eloise? As in Eloise Hawking? Maybe Daniel is with his mom who’s currently on the island with the others, or maybe he used her knowledge to somehow leave…or maybe he saw himself getting conceived, interrupted coitus and now no longer exists!!!…who knows…
DJSmackMackey on 03 Apr 2009 at 7:14 am #
I think Faraday has become obsessed with changing events ever since Charlotte died. In the synopsis for next weeks ep, it says Ben goes to be judged by the smoke monster. That, in and of itself, is very interesting. Is the smoke monster a litmus test for the soul?
Ben can’t forget everything, which is probably why he was so obsessed with the 815 survivors. But the state of the Dharma camp and stations does lead me to agree that something has changed. That’s a lot of decay and disarray for only being 3 years left alone.
I’ve been rewatching the eps from this season, and I find it interesting that people on all sides are after the same goal. To get everyone back to the island. I think maybe neither Widmore nor Ben can be trusted. They’re two people playing chess with everyone else’s lives. Richard is a character that we need a flashback episode for. I really wanna know his story.
Catherine on 03 Apr 2009 at 7:41 am #
Did I already tell you that I love your theories and that I can’t wait to see if something happens the way you tried to explain us?
You didn’t say anything about Charles and Ellie who were shortly mentioned by Richard and the other Other.
It sounded as if they were in charge and should be informed about the injured Ben. But wasn’t it different in the Fifties when there was this Jughead? Richard was the leader but something must have changed in the meantime. Hmm, okay this has nothing to do with your theory above, but it is a part of this episode I am thinking about.
Viel Spaß noch in Deutschland, wo immer du auch genau bist!
Pauline on 03 Apr 2009 at 8:54 am #
After I reading your post at 4 AM (my stupid sore throat woke me up. grumble) I was laying there thinking about when Richard said something to the effect that Ben won’t be the same, one thing came to mind… “Pet Cemetery.” Though, Ben is only injured… what about this makes Ben special? to be the one who doesn’t come back without memory? How is Ben different from Locke who has been healed AND come back to life on the island? He seems to remember everything and are not.
Anyway… maybe this is why Ben gets cancer & isn’t mystically healed? Because he was already cured? but that doesn’t explain Locke either. Sigh. Whatever. I do think that something is going to happen in the 70′s to make Ben obsess over the Flight 815 people. Don’t know what but I’ll be expecting it.
Sawyer might have just mean that if Ben died it would be both of their problem because the truce would end.
Otherwise, LOVED the whole Back to the Future conversation. Wonder if it was a tip to the viewers to keep thinking about it when Miles and Hurley exited the house, Miles (or Hurley, not sure which) asked to talk more about time travel?
Vanessa N. on 03 Apr 2009 at 10:16 am #
Perhaps it’s a sort of cop out, but I haven’t chosen a side yet. There just hasn’t been enough info on either side to convince me (or it could just be that I love the thrill of not knowing and hate being wrong). I do agree that the Dharma buildings in the Ajira present seem WAY too run down. I also think that Faraday (or “Squirrelly,” as I like to call him), whether or not he’s given up on his theory, just doesn’t give a s#!t anymore since he knows he wasn’t able to save Charlotte from dying. Because of that, I don’t think he’ll tell her not to return to the island, which yes, is him trying to change things or, if he does still believe in his theory, is him trying to fight “fate.”
I thought it was interesting what Richard said about if the Others take Ben, he will never be the same again and he will always be an Other…perhaps turning him into the Ben we all love to hate?
Thank you to Meredith & her friend for the info about the list. I hadn’t even thought about that!
Loved the Miles/Hurley scene, and that Miles is becoming the surrogate Sawyer (a.k.a. resident smartass) while Sawyer is the more responsible LaFleur.
I know this doesn’t have anything to do with your post, but was anyone else disappointed in the explanation for Kate’s giving up Aaron? After her reaction with Jack and being so worked up, I guess I just wanted something more to happen than her just giving him to his grandmother. Of course, I still want the psychic’s prediction to Claire about her needing to raise Aaron or bad things will happen to come true…and not in a peripheral way.
Enjoy your vacation, John!
00Seve on 03 Apr 2009 at 11:16 am #
(sorry if this brings up things from other posts, but I read them all at once)
While God knows the only thing I love thinking about more than LOST is string theory, I’m a big believer in the everything that happened, happened assumption (mostly because Lindelof and Cuse said so… but I guess they could be lying… agh… anyway). This line of thought seems to be proven by the end of that episode, where Kate and Sawyer end up inadvertently creating evil Ben by giving him to the Hostiles.
A lot of the other questions are easily answered solely taking the show at face value. If Ben dies, it will be bad for the Hostiles because the Dharma people think Sayid is a hostile and would probably call off the truce if a kid is murdered. “Curly Sue” told them to bury the bodies to buy them time to escape (the Hostiles would take some time to discover their “missing” people), not necessarily because she’s worried about Hostile Zombies. Lapidus knows the pilot in the bottom of the ocean is not Grunberg because he doesn’t have a ring on (Lepidus knows Grunberg’s character was very much happily married, which supports the hoax theory).
That final exchange between Hurley and Miles does bother me (but is also easily explained). I’m just saying, with all the other weird stuff that’s going on, we should consider Occam’s Razor before we jump to string theory.
But what do I know? I thought baby Ethan was gonna turn out to be Jacob.
Mike on 03 Apr 2009 at 12:44 pm #
I think where Daniel is, relates to what happened after what was seen in the opening scene of the premiere, where he was bearing witness to the construction of the Orchid. His character seems to be ripped right out of Slaughterhouse Five, so I’m guessing he’s unstuck in time, and the scene from last season’s “Confirmed Dead” where he’s crying could tie into that. Complete guess on that and probably wrong. I would’ve accepted that Ben always knew Sayid, but I like this twist better. Hurley being the audience is great. I’ve got to stick with Miles on it though, whatever they are doing in 1977, they always did in 1977. This seems like they’re way of showing us how Ben became Ben. Why the barracks seem uninhabited by the others in 2007, not sure, but that did seem odd. Something certainly happened in that three year interim between ’04 and ’07. The time travel element could be a Charlie situation. Maybe they are changing things to a degree, the way Desmond kept saving Charlie, but in the end whatever happened will happen one way or another. It would be kind of cheap to not have Dharma get gassed by Ben after showing us that’s what happened, and given that the show is supposedly using non paradoxical time travel, I think those events will unfold the same way. The Finale is called “The Incident” which will probably focus around the Swan, the jughead bomb which i think is buried behind that wall in The Swan, and may be how all of them get to be in the right “time zone”. I read recently the smoke monster is as old as the island and it definitely seems like it’s the Judge of the Island in a way. I’m pretty sure Yemi was supposed to be an incarnation of it back in season two and it wanted Eko to repent. Plus as mentioned above, Ben is using it to atone for his sins. First time posting so sorry if I’ve just repeated information already up here. What I’m wondering is if Pierre Changs kid is Miles, has Miles met Miles yet? And where’s Horaces first wife Olivia?
John Cabrera on 03 Apr 2009 at 2:58 pm #
Seve, ha! Anyone who uses Occam’s Razor is more than welcome here! So glad you’ve found us. Although, I like drowning in the complexity. God forbid someone actually solves something! What would we do then? lol.
I love your observations and I think many of your points are solid… but I still don’t get why Curls was so concerned with burying the bodies. If it was to buy time so they could escape, burying bodies would be the last thing they’d want to do. That would take over an hour…and with what shovel?… I’m curious why she didn’t say hide the bodies. I mean, I suppose burying could be a preventative measure to uphold the truce… but only if they thought the The Others might never find the bodies. But there’s no way it’s faster to bury those bodies than it is to just run back to camp.
And yeah, I understand why Lapidis knows it’s not Grunberg… but how does that support it’s a hoax? It just means it’s not Grunberg. Can we really trust the sources that told us it’s a hoax? One came via Ben… the other via Widmore. I don’t trust either. So what I was suggesting is that, if the writers are playing with the collision of alternate realities… the plane could be an alternate 815… with a totally different pilot, or a totally different unmarried Grunberg, or perhaps even Lapidis himself, who admited he was supposed to be on that flight.
But I didn’t know Cuse and Lindelof said that. And if they said it in a definative way, then I’d be inclined to believe them. But the few times I have heard them say something, they always say it in a way that leaves wiggle room. I do remember they said this season would deal heavily with time/space and the shift in time on and off the Island.
Again, so glad to have you here!
kelseroo on 03 Apr 2009 at 3:05 pm #
“lil’ 10 year old Smokey; one who just wanted to play”. Hahahaha! Whew… Anyway, I am kind of ashamed to admit this to you, but… I am a Hurley. I am a non-obsessed Lost viewer. I think I can only obsess about one television show at a time, and my obsession show is The Office. Yikes, don’t kill me, people commenting on this blog!
John Cabrera on 03 Apr 2009 at 3:28 pm #
Mike, I love this idea that rival theories are emerging about the show’s physics. How funny would it be if the Incident is the Gassing, and our finale has both sides of fans on the edge of their seat about whether time will repeat itself or if somehow they’re able to alter the events. I can imagine, millions of fans around the world leaping for joy as they watch the Dharma Initiative, including some of our survivors, convulsing on the ground. “Yeah!!! My theory was right!!!!! Time can’t be changed!!!!!!!” LOL.
Anyway, I very much believe that the scene in S4 with Daniel crying takes place AFTER all of this is over… the events of the show that is. And that plays a big part in my theory that the plane he’s watching on TV is a real Flight 815… not a hoax. I’ll be sharing more on that one soon. And, yeah, wondering the same about Chang’s kid and Miles. Good point about Olivia!
Pauline, I love that Pet Cemetary comparison. The writers LOVE S. King. They’ve said they’re heavily influenced by him.
Catherine, yeah, I did notice that line. It doesn’t do much for my theories yet. But I do believe Faraday is Widmore and Ellie’s son.
John Cabrera on 03 Apr 2009 at 3:36 pm #
This blog needs its Hurleys, Kels! We won’t kill you. But our theories might cause you some serious agony. lol.
Itzel on 03 Apr 2009 at 7:21 pm #
So even though I’m also with the alternate reality/universe cause really, why did the 2007 dharmaville camp look like that? I’m having my doubts, cause I was kinda sure Ben would die in the episode, but obviously he’s not. What is Richard doing to him? I have no idea, but he’ll be alive and well (sigh, I liked the ben kid dead/alive big ben theory). Now, I hope we don’t see our Losties convulsing during the purge! but yeah that was one of my first theories, lol.
Aaaand my biggest fear in next week’s episode, is that we’ll see that Benn did kill Penny… I really hope they don’t go down that road, but who knows? maybe it’s the only way they can make Desmond go back to the island?
Also, Kelseroo, you know, you could totally be an obsessive fan of both The Office and Lost, I am! and weren’t the last couple of Office episodes AMAAAAZING? what’s going on with Pam???!!!
Erik on 03 Apr 2009 at 8:07 pm #
Okay, I haven’t read all of the comments yet, so forgive me if I’m covering something someone else already covered, but when Pauline made the Pet Semetary comment (referring to Ben being brought back to life, but being brought back “different”), I thought of the Frenchies:
The last time we saw The Temple was when we were with Danielle and her crew. The men were sucked into the Temple by the Smoke Monster, and then (correct me if I’m remembering this wrong) the next time we saw them with Danielle (when Jin flashed forward a short period of time), Danielle was accusing them all of being “different” and (assuming Danielle wasn’t just crazy) it felt, to me, like the French men were somehow brought back to life (and possibly possessed) by Smokey.
Then at the end of the last ep, Richard took Ben into the Temple to “save him,” (i.e. bring him back to life in a way) (i.e. be “changed” by Smokey), so…I wonder if the Ben we’ve gotten to know as a child and the Ben we know as an adult really ARE two different people in a way…What if adult Ben is part Smokey (like I’m part Polish and part Swedish). And maybe all of the other people who’ve been brought back to life (Locke, Christian, others?) are part Smokey too? Maybe they even have some sort of collective Borg-like consciousness? (Not that we’ve really seen that from Adult Ben — his behavior isn’t as omniscent-acting as Christian’s is — so maybe this theory is just hoo-haw.)
On a separate note, I found myself really moved by the scene with Kate and Claire’s mom and when Kate told Mrs. Littleton that her daughter was alive, I started to really yearn for Claire to actually BE alive. And I know we’re not going to get an answer to the Claire of it all until next season, but we never actually SAW her die. We just assumed she was dead because she hangs out with Christian and ditched her kid (and sometimes hangs out ghost-like behind Sun). But she COULD, maybe, still be alive, right?
leah on 03 Apr 2009 at 8:12 pm #
I totally believe that time is neither fluid or a straight line. My own hunch, theory, whatever is that it is actually a spiral. Time gives us stupid humans the chance to fix our mistakes. You know the saying hind sight is 20/20? Thats why it is so important to study history. Technology has changed but all the basics stay the same.
So when Jack is given the chance to save young Ben and says NO he pisses me off. He said he believed he was brought back for a reason. He is a doctor. Hello…big reason just slapped you upside the head ahole. If he would of been a good person he could of saved all this from happening. He is starting to act like Ben in the future.
But of course there will be holes…so let me have it guys!
BTW John….James is pimping your blogs about Lost on facebook. Awesome!
PS Cried when Kate had to give up Aaron. God that broke my heart!
Erik on 03 Apr 2009 at 8:26 pm #
Regarding Olivia…they never actually said she was Horace’s wife. She could have been his sister.
Unfortunately, the “what happened to Olivia” question isn’t one we’re going to get an answer to. They wanted to bring Samantha Mathis back this season, but she declined. That forced the writers to revise some of Horace’s backstory, thus paving way for the Amy character. Based on the fact that Olivia hasn’t been mentioned AT ALL this season, I think we’re supposed to assume that Olivia wasn’t Horace’s wife, but rather his sister, (after all, Amy’s first husband has certainly been a plot point, and Horace seems like a bit of a hypocrite for being all pissed off about her having a prior marriage if he had a prior marriage too). Olivia was never actually referred to as Horace’s wife in “The Man Behind the Curtain,” it was just generally assumed that that’s who she was (because, when the writer’s thought they’d be bringing Samantha Mathis back, THEY probably thought that’s who she was too).
DJSmackMackey on 04 Apr 2009 at 11:10 am #
I just rewatched the episode where Sun talks to Christian, and I noticed something. It’s 2007, right? There is a big Dharma logo on the front door of the house Christian comes out of. Now, I could be wrong, but I don’t think there were any big Dharma logos like that when The Others were living there. So something has changed. The Dharma initiative may still get gassed, but Ben and the Others must not move in.
Also, I think I may have figured out who Jacob is. I think it’s Jack. Jack is a nickname for Jacob. I did a quick search and I don’t see any listings of his full birth name. Which could help explain why Christian and Claire are also both in the cabin. A little family reunion. Maybe he sacrifices himself to save everyone, and he becomes unstuck in time? But as far as names go, that’s the most logical, if it’s someone we already know.
Pauline on 05 Apr 2009 at 8:56 am #
Hmmm… I wondering if perhaps Jack turning down the chance to help young Ben didn’t in fact save the Dharma people from the Purge in 1992?
In the first timeline Ben had to prove his loyalty to Alpert & the Others by killing everyone. But here, Alpert has to save Ben & says that he can never go back to Dharma. Could this be what changed things to make Sun & Lapidus see abandoned Dharmaville?
So, if we go by Miles’ assessment of the time travel thing, might we believe that Ben could actually come back a good or better person? I mean, in the original timeline, Ben DID gas everyone at Dharma, right?
Also wondering if Ben’s trial in the next ep has to do with the Egyptian belief that their heart must be weighed in order to live in the afterlife. Could it be that Ben is brought to the temple as a child but is to be judged for all the things he did in all time lines of his life?
Supporting this idea, maybe because the Frenchies didn’t pay proper respect to smokie were made insane but since Alpert will conduct proper rituals he will bring Ben back healed in mind, spirit & body?
However, Jack not helping may also have started a devastating war in the 70′s wiping everyone out.
Anyway… just throwing stuff on the wall to see what sticks. Guess I’ll find out next week.
Pauline on 05 Apr 2009 at 9:55 am #
Okay… for some reason I thought it had been said that Ben had to prove his loyalty to Alpert and the others but the only thing we know for sure is that Alpert said something to the effect of: it might be possible for Ben to join the others, but that he would have to be very patient.
Just wanted to clarify that by saying Ben had to prove himself, I was assuming… and you know what assume does.