Lost Civilization of Viracocha
Sorry about the delay there guys! Hope you all enjoy this installment of Marathon Lost Week here at johncabrera.com. Please, let me know your thoughts.
And if you haven’t seen my Post-Finale entry (whew almost used the word “post” twice in the sentence) click here after listening to the podcast for an interesting comparison photo of Jacob.
SarahSamudre on 16 May 2009 at 1:37 am #
Amazing link to the Viracocha legend. Jacob matches that physical description at the very least, and the seafoam- ah! You know how I love the visual cues. So if there is an Atlantis/Sun God thing going on- which is it here? Is Jacob an altruistic wise teacher wanting to find the right people on the Island to rebuild the perfect civilization of his which was tragically lost? Or is he a God that merely wants worshippers? I’m on the fence on whether I believe Jacob cares because he’s a good teacher, or if he’s just in love with being a God. You get nice moments with him and Kate, Sawyer, Locke and Hurley, but then he kills Nadia and basically tells Ben he’s worthless. I love how the Lost writers constantly give you counterpoints to everything you could be beginning to think about a character.
I agree, Pellegrino is awesome. I think he’ll be back for SURE- if Jack’s plan works, then it will reset everything. The members of 815 don’t crash in the same way- although here’s my idea- Daniel’s whole plot doesn’t factor Fate into why people came to the Island. If memory serves me right, the plane had already gone mysteriously off course WAY before Desmond almost missed pushing the button. We now know that Jacob had been watching these people long before the flight took off. What do you want to bet Season 6 is everyone back on the Island, they’ve just been brought in different ways. Regardless, this reset, which has to work (or what IS Season 6) gives us Jacob back, at least for 17 more episodes.
Catherine on 16 May 2009 at 2:32 am #
How do you always find these stories and legends and books you base your theories on? Amazing!
Sashamari on 16 May 2009 at 6:30 am #
you could also look at this way…He didnt kill Nadia….he saved Sayid…..Maybe he needs Sayid for a greater purpose?
Rae on 16 May 2009 at 6:32 am #
Dang it, I should have figured out that final Ray comment way before you said it.
The thing is, I think it’s obvious the writers are mixing many religious legends together here. For that reason, the legend of Viracocha works for me just as the legend of Jacob and Esau works for me. There are bits and pieces that definitely fit our story but none of them matches perfectly. Which is why I still like the idea of Atlantis or even the Island of Flame. Because they come from before all of those and therefore could be all of them together.
Going back to Ray, a part of me wonders if we’ve all read too much into the Shepherds on the Island that being significant (it could be just that they are dead bodies on the Island who have a connection). But the introduction of Ray still feels unnecessary unless he has a bigger role to play. And they may not always cast the right ages on this show but they certainly try to make sure they get the “look” right so I’m not as quick as I would normally be to dismiss that as a coincidence.
Bird on 16 May 2009 at 8:19 am #
Interesting.
Emily Lozano on 16 May 2009 at 9:50 am #
So, I’m loving Jacob and the battle he has with the other guy (much like John & Jack have been battling and Ben & Widmore, too.) I suspect Jacob will start appearing in the form of Jack to duke it out with the Faux John Locke.
If Jacob and the other guy are of this ancient race then is Richard Alpert from the same race? He never ages and has light eyes. He seems like a guide or a test administrator for this age-old battle. It seems to be all about duality for these writers, too. Choices are usually either/or.
By the way, does anyone have a theory about where the rest of the “Hostiles” came from? They are all different races. Also, in the 70s a baby was born on the island and Mom and baby are fine. Hmm.
Great post – keep em coming!
Pauline on 16 May 2009 at 10:08 am #
I’m not sure if you know this yet John… but you so nailed it on the Aztec thing. For reasons that I won’t go into, I have a personal interest in the Aztecs. And this is what I know. Quetzalcoalt is associated with the East, craft industry, TWINS, and he is the inventor of the calendar. Also, his color was white.
Quetzalcoatl’s had an opposite named Tezcatlipoca, who sent Quetzalcoatl into exile. Though some stories say he left willingly on a raft of snakes, promising to return.
Here is the thing about Tezcatlipoca… He carried a magic mirror that gave off smoke and killed enemies thus known as the “god of the smoking mirror.” As the opponent of the more spiritual Quetzalcoatl, he sometimes appeared as a tempter, he tested men’s minds with temptation, rather than trying to lead them lead them to darkness.. He Punished evil and rewarded goodness.
I’m still not sure where I stand on Atlantis. I do think that what Rae was talking about… the writers mixing and matching world religions is pretty much dead on. And in my world/spiritual view the reason for so many creation/god myths reading so similarly is due to the collective/cosmic conciousness. But that couldn’t play out on TV very well and a good concrete explanation for this melding would be the legend of Atlantis.
Still not abandoning my Switcheroo Theory (that is my official theory name cause it sounds very Scooby Doo-esque), because I feel like it would be a very Stephen King style thing to happen and I know how much the writers love him.
And thanks for giving us a place to come with our theories that is basically flame free. Everyone who comments here is so smart and has such great ideas. Sends the mind racing in all sorts of directions.
Pauline on 16 May 2009 at 10:33 am #
Grrr… I forgot to mention that Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl, were adopted as gods by the Aztecs from the Toltec’s and they turned them into twin gods who were opposite and equal. (Though Quetzalcoatl had an actual twin brother named Xolotl ~ their mother was Coatlicue the Goddess who got me interested in Aztecs in the first place. Quetz was the child of a virgin birth and his mother) Together, Quetz & Tez created the world. Though the tale includes Tez losing his foot in the process.
Also… Tez’s big thing is the idea of change through conflict.
and lastly… he appeared most frequently as a magician, a shape shifter and a god of mysterious powers.
Oh… and Holy COW! I just remembered this. Coatlicue, the mother of Quez, is the patron Goddess of women who die in childbirth. I can’t believe I forgot that because the reason I had originally looked at Sekhmet is because she was tied to Coatlicue through the whole child birthin’ thing.
I think that is all I’ve got. Carry on.
Ed R on 16 May 2009 at 11:56 am #
Pauline,
Will you marry me?
…oops. Did I say that out loud?
Pauline on 16 May 2009 at 2:05 pm #
Gosh… I’m not usually one to blush… but I think I’m blushing.
Itzel on 16 May 2009 at 2:13 pm #
Interesting, never once I thought about the bearded Spaniards, but yes, I like that idea. Of course I have to get immersed more in all this before I can make up my mind hehe. Cause this Lost writers are using a whole bunch of mythology from several places, and now I just don’t know what to think. But I’m getting more and more on board with your Ray-Jacob-Grandpa theory. It’s just, the physical similarities cannot be a coincidence! I mean, look at little Kate, she was just so cute and totally like grown up Kate. Of course the casting people take a great deal of time choosing the people that will play the roles.
And Pauline, whoa! could it be that you just found even more info on the mythology Lost writers are using in the show???
John Cabrera on 17 May 2009 at 2:11 am #
SarahSamudre, I don’t know if I’d say he killed Nadia. I think I’m more of the belief that he kept Sayid from being killed. I also don’t think his actions with the others were necessarily good. They were just part of a larger plan… one that uses men as tools. And since I believe he’s suppose to be a god of some sort, he’s behaving pretty standard in that regard. Even the most compassionate of the ancient deities separated themselves from man… considered themselves above. I don’t interpret what he said to Ben as him being worthless, but more like, “you’re talking to me like we’re on the same level… we’re not.” Which I suppose would be a fair thing to say, if they aren’t on the same level.
I would love a reset actually. It would be so cool if Season 6 is a return to Season 1 only things are a bit different. Moments recreated from the first season. Anyway, I’m with you that however it plays out, everyone’s back on the Island.
John Cabrera on 17 May 2009 at 2:12 am #
Itzel, Pauline, that’s basically what I’m getting at… this is not so cut and dry as one set of Gods… one Mythology… I think this is about how all the different Mythologies came from the same place. How it’s all just different names for the same thing, Jacob, Thoth, Viracocha, Atlantis, Isle of Flame, etc. The Lost writers may have an even bigger answer for what all of that actually is… I mean, a lot of those questions are huge mysteries in the real world… so they could make up anything they want as the answer… for example, they could say that all the religions of the world stemmed from the same thing: an Alien Race that’s been stranded on earth for thousands of years… and that their original space ship now resembles a tropical Island.
And Pauline, rad with the Aztec info.
Rae, every time I said the word Re in that podcast, I imagined you chuckling to yourself. Can’t believe you didn’t see that one coming at the end. lol
Catherine, I always seem to stumble on books and stuff at the last minute actually. But this legend of the bearded white men that taught the people of the Americas is one that I’ve always been fascinated with. I started thinking about it again as I was reading some of the comments here about beards on the show.
Pauline on 17 May 2009 at 4:48 am #
One last Aztec note… When Tez lost his leg, it was while he was trying to create Land from the body of a god/creature who had the head of an allegator. It also had the body of a fish. Up until that point, the world was just water.
Oh… & thanks John… Though I wouldn’t have gotten there without your podcast. Nice how your blog does that.
SarahSamudre on 17 May 2009 at 11:28 am #
I dunno, I think he may have killed Nadia to bring Sayid back to the Island to rig the bomb. Just like he killed (mostly) Juliet so she could detonate the bomb. Again, not to be malicious, but hey! When you’re a god, what’s a few lives for the cause, especially if it’s going to cause a reset ANYWAY, so they’d be alive if it worked.
Speaking of the reset, sad thought hit me last night:
If it works, Desmond and Penny won’t be together. The island wants him back. The events of 815 led to Penny finding Desmond. How will fate bring them together? And does Baby Charlie exist in the future? Very sad/intriguing to think about. How much does fate course correct for?
John Cabrera on 17 May 2009 at 11:46 am #
Wait… how do you figure Jacob killed Juliet? And as for Nadia, wouldn’t you say that allowing someone to die, and killing them are very different things? It was the car that killed Nadia, no? And my sense is that it would have hit them both had it not been for Jacob.
SarahSamudre on 17 May 2009 at 2:12 pm #
Okay, here’s my “Jacob Has a Plan” theory:
It’s late 17th-18th century. Island man tells Jacob he’s going to find a loophole. Jacob, who apparently has some skill sets that are wonderous, starts planning.
The Island tries to get at Locke. Jacob notices. When the Island convinces Locke to leave (and tells him via Christian that he’ll have to die) Jacob gets proactive. He makes sure Sayid and Hurley have reasons to go back to the Island. Now that we know Ilana works for Jacob, we know why he was on Ajira 316. BUT, only certain people flash back to 1977. WHY? We know now it had nothing to do with the Island needing to be saved. Locke had fixed that in 1974 when he left.
Jacob’s plan. He arranged for Daniel to be there, for all of them to be together, those who would push people, those who would give ideas, and those who could accomplish them.
Juliet wasn’t just unlucky. She was brought there, ala Charlie. Otherwise that fall would have KILLED her DEAD, you know? The fact that she was alive after all that metal fell down around her, let alone the height from which she fell- the fact that she was conscious- it was Jacob (IMO) making sure that Juliet, like Sayid and all the others he sent to the 70′s were there to reset things.
And again, it’s not like its malicious. But as you said, he’s godlike and above such things. I’m sure a powerful being like him doesn’t really even register allowing someone to die/killing them as wrong if the end is a) they’ll be alive in another timestream b) it saves him, ie everyone else on the Island.
Because LEST we forget, Island Zombie Locke wants to kill everyone after he gets done with Jacob. The Island doesn’t like houseguests.
*by the way, should we have known Juliet was a goner from the get go? With the significance of names on this show- her death (or the appearance of it) makes sense to me.
SarahSamudre on 17 May 2009 at 2:29 pm #
Another “by the way”… if my theory is correct and 5/6 Oceanic Six were drawn back to 1977 for a REASON- that reason being to reset what the Island was trying to do- that would mean Jacob has willful dominion over Time on the Island (and maybe elsewhere?).
THAT is so *squeeeeee* inducing I just may faint from it.
John Cabrera on 17 May 2009 at 11:13 pm #
SarahSamudre, one thing’s for sure… you are theory concentrate. Add water to you and we have a delicious theory cocktail for weeks. lol.
But my take on all of this is actually a little different from yours. I’m still formulating it, so I’m not gonna lay it all out just yet, but I’ll say this…. I believe the loop with the 815 survivors going to 1977 and dropping a bomb has been happening for countless iterations… however, I believe this is the first time the bomb ever actually blew up…. AND the first time Juliet came out of unconsciousness to do it. In fact, I don’t think she was unconscious at all… I think she was dead… just like Locke after his massive fall. The image of her falling and then waking was strikingly similar to his. And if that’s true, then Jacob didn’t kill her… he revived her somehow in this particular iteration. To allow her to make a choice. That seems to be a thing with this guy… he believes in Man… and believes they should be given a choice. And I think it’s interesting to note that it’s right after Jacob is thrown into the fire that Juliet suddenly wakes. I know chronologically they don’t match… but time in this story isn’t linear.
SarahSamudre on 17 May 2009 at 11:48 pm #
To support your loop theory… we did see Dr Chang injure his arm, which we’ve seen in later Dharma videos. I was thinking about that last night, with Miles’ “have you thought this through” warning in my head.
And yay for being theory concentrate. But what does that make you? I’m pretty sure my theoretical concoctions don’t include the Grandfather theory, which to me, is theory jacked out to the max. *
*that is not a bad thing. If I didn’t LOVE your theories I wouldn’t always be here chiming in!
Pauline on 19 May 2009 at 3:55 am #
Since you guys are still discussing… Just whose orders has been been following, anyway? Do we really know?
If you go off the Aztec info… Tez, the bad brother controls the smoke monster… & ben knows how to summon it. In fact there is a secret passge under his house for that purpose. He summon it when alex was killed.
Also… Ben has never seen Jacob… Only notes on bits of paper. We saw Jacob off the island doing kind things… Yet the things that Jacob directed ben to do, were hardly kind.
I don’t think Jacob has been on the island for a long time. I think something caused him to leave around, say, 1954 or 1955… & not return until 2007. Approx. 52ish years.
That myth about quetz being sent away/going willingly on a raft? Well Tez tricked him by getting him drunk & using his magic mirror/smokey to show him he had become like tez. Maybe Jacob’s time/people experiment with the black rock crew didn’t go so well? Could that be what started this mess? & one of the times he retuned was in around the time of jughead? In the myth… Quetz can only return every 52 years…
Another version of the myth shows quetz tossing himself in a fire. I just may be abandoning the switcheroo theory.
Did I mention that zombie Locke brought Ben to Skokie & Skokie acted as sort of a mirror to show him what he had done/what kind of man he was?
Hmmmmm…
Pauline on 19 May 2009 at 4:24 am #
& now… Lying here thinking about it… What about Jin? Could he be zombie Jin? Why else keep he and sun apart in time? He was also not attacked by Smokey when the Frenchmen were & didn’t go down after smokey like they did. Could that have been to kill off the men so that Danielle would be alone when it was time to take Alex? Giving alex to ben sure gave him an easily manipulatible weak spot.
This all came to mind while watching ben talk Locke out of suicide. I’m not even sure I buy this part of my theory though.
SarahSamudre on 19 May 2009 at 6:53 pm #
Pauline, that’s what I’ve been wondering too!!! I now have a theory that the Island healed Ben as a boy, not Jacob (hence the loss of innocence and Jacob’s distance from Ben). Given that, and the Island’s ability to manipulate people into thinking it’s Jacob, maybe the Island has used that to its advantage for a long time. Obviously, it fooled Richard well and he’s been around for who knows how long. With Jacob’s involvment on and off Island, and the Island’s centuries (if not longer) desire to kill Jacob, who knows if all the orders people have thought were Jacob’s were really the Islands?
I hope John doesn’t mind our prolonged discussion. I’m going to go watch that dance video now to alleviate my guilt.
SarahSamudre on 20 May 2009 at 12:59 pm #
John. WOH. Just proved your theory. I mean, maybe not without a SHADOW of a doubt, but check this photo out:
http://www.sarahsamudre.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/julietflashback.png
A friend of mind and I were at the gym today theorizing about how “modern” Juliet’s flashback looked, in a show that’s usually so careful with costume, hair and set design. I was looking through the scene on itunes and the book on the table is…
wait for it….
MYSTERIES OF THE ANCIENT AMERICAS.
Wow. Um, you are awesome. And ever so vindicated.
SarahSamudre on 20 May 2009 at 1:01 pm #
How does your theory victory dance go? Oingo boingo bango bongo?
Or something????
Ed R on 20 May 2009 at 2:42 pm #
My head hurts. If the show is this convoluted, I’m going to be certain to avoid it.
ecruz3 on 20 May 2009 at 3:00 pm #
Holy mackerel, I got goosebumps when I saw that pic! Nice catch!
Pauline on 20 May 2009 at 3:04 pm #
And notice that the book is placed under a Conch shell. I happened to read the other day that Quetzacoatle (I know I spell that different every time… But I’m on my phone) any way… I read that Quetz wears a pendant called the “wind jewel”& it is made from a conch shell & sometime Jade.
Way to go John & Sarah! You guys are like fred & velma.(that is meant to be a compliment! I swear!
John Cabrera on 20 May 2009 at 5:36 pm #
Close. It’s “Bingo bango oingo boingo!”